Switching from Lead 6 instrument to VDL piano

[Joe]

Hi,

I am using the Sibelius VDL 7.0 template in Sibelius 6.2. I have begun arranging percussion for a marching piece where the keyboard grand staff starts with Sibelius' Lead 6 (Vocal) instrument; I use this to simulate a choir patch on an electronic keyboard. Somewhere into the piece, I want  the keyboard player to switch to a piano patch, which I would typically do in Sibelius via an instrument change to the VDL piano instrument. There are two instrument changes: one in the right hand (treble cleff) and the other in the left hand (bass clef).

However, in this piece with the Sibelius 7.0 template only the right hand is changing to the piano sound. The left hand continues to playback sounds from the Lead 6 (Vocal) instrument. I took a look at a score last year where I did the same thing using the VDL 6.0b Template, and it worked as I described in that case.

I tried dragging the instrument change a few bars to the left and it didn't help. I am using a playback configuration with four instances of Kontakt Player 4. Three are assigned to the VDL Soundset 7.0 and one is assigned to Sibelius Essentials. I'm still brainstorming so I haven't used that many percussion instruments yet, although in the past I've found that three instances of KP4 is sufficient for a full and complete score.

Is something wrong with Template 7.0 and/or am I doing something wrong?

[Hugh Smith]

Hi Joe

I couldn't find a "Lead 6 (Vocal)" instrument anywhere. What Ensemble > Family did you find it in? Do you know what the default sound ID is?

Hmmm...  Did you have both staves of the grand staff selected at the same time when you did the instrument change? Oh, is the Lead 6 (Vocal) instrument setup as a grand staff? Check that other file and see what it looks like.

Going from pitched to pitched you shouldn't have to move the change to the left (most likely do for pitched to unpitched, as I think you already know). Is there any particular reason why you're using the Kontakt Essentials versus the Sibelius Player version? Shouldn't matter, but you never know.

I can't think of anything I could've done in the Template that would be causing different behavior like that, but if there is, let's see if we can figure out how to fix it. And remember too, all the Sib 7 family of templates I'm building are defined in 7 and then exported back to 5 and 6. (Hopefully that's not doing anything wonky.)

[Joe]

I couldn't find a "Lead 6 (Vocal)" instrument anywhere. What Ensemble > Family did you find it in? Do you know what the default sound ID is?

It's actually "Lead 6 (Voice)"; I was slightly inaccurate in my first post. I see it in the "All Instruments" Ensemble and in the "Keyboards" Family. I am using Sibelius Essentials from Sibelius 5, so perhaps this particular instrument doesn't exist in a later version of Sibelius Essentials. Essentials and VDL are the only two libraries I have.

I'm not sure how to determine the default Sound ID, but in the Sibelius Mixer the sound listed (in parentheses, so it's set to (Auto)) is "Synth Voice (GM)".

Did you have both staves of the grand staff selected at the same time when you did the instrument change?

If I have both staves selected and create the instrument change, Sibelius only puts the change on the right-hand staff. I have to create a second instrument change on the left-hand staff to change that staff as well (which is the one that isn't working).

Oh, is the Lead 6 (Vocal) instrument setup as a grand staff? Check that other file and see what it looks like.

I thought it was, but upon further investigation the Lead 6 instrument does not have a grand staff by default. If I add a VDL piano instrument to the score, it comes in with a grand staff. When I changed it to Lead 6 at the beginning of the score, this changed the actual starting instrument (per standard Sibelius behavior) but retained the grand staff. This is the situation that I'm working with in my new score, as well as the previous working score. If I add a new Lead 6 (Voice) instrument, it comes in as a single treble-cleff staff only.

Here is exactly how the previous score, which works, is setup. I have a grand staff that I believe was originally a VDL piano. I changed the right-hand staff to djembe at the first bar, which gave the right-hand staff a percussion cleff and listed the instrument as Djembe (again, per standard Sibelius behavior). There is djembe notation mms 1-17, then both staves have instrument changes to Pad 2 (Warm), which is in the same family as Lead 6 (Voice). Pad 2 is notated in a grand staff from mms 18-29, then both staves have instrument changes to Piano (only called "Piano" in Template 6.0b, but now called "Piano~VDL" in Template 7.0). Piano is notated in a grand staff from mms. 30-39, then both staves have instrument changes to Pad 2 (Warm). Pad 2 is notated in a grand staff from mms. 40-54, then both staves have instrument changes to Piano. Piano is notated in a grand staff from mms. 55-81 then both staves have instrument changes to Pad 2. Pad 2 is notated until the end of the score.

That's slightly different than what I'm experiencing now (especially with Pad 2 and Lead 6 being different instruments in this specific example), but I have gone back and forth from Piano to Lead 6 (and other instruments) in similar fashion in other scores without difficulty. Other than those variables, the previous score, as I've said, is built on Template 6.0b and uses the 6.0b soundset for playback.

Is there any particular reason why you're using the Kontakt Essentials versus the Sibelius Player version? Shouldn't matter, but you never know.

It's a habit I picked up after running into some troubles with Kontakt on previous systems. However, testing is always good. This particular VDL/Sibelius installation is on the newer side on a new laptop of mine, and it turns out that I only have four available playback devices listed: Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth, GM-MODULE, Kontakt 4, and KontaktPlayer2. I wonder where my Sibelius Player is...

And remember too, all the Sib 7 family of templates I'm building are defined in 7 and then exported back to 5 and 6. (Hopefully that's not doing anything wonky.)

Hopefully...

[Hugh Smith]

OK, I see the Lead 6 instrument you're talking about now. (You'd have to change your File > Preferences > Playback > Display setting to Sound IDs to see them in your Edit Instruments dialog. The Program Name you saw is the label given to the patch file that's defined in the sound set that has the matching sound ID to the instrument being defined.)

Here is exactly how the previous score, which works, is setup. I have a grand staff that I believe was originally a VDL piano. I changed the right-hand staff to djembe at the first bar, which gave the right-hand staff a percussion cleff and listed the instrument as Djembe (again, per standard Sibelius behavior). There is djembe notation mms 1-17, then both staves have instrument changes to Pad 2 (Warm), which is in the same family as Lead 6 (Voice). Pad 2 is notated in a grand staff from mms 18-29, then both staves have instrument changes to Piano (only called "Piano" in Template 6.0b, but now called "Piano~VDL" in Template 7.0). Piano is notated in a grand staff from mms. 30-39, then both staves have instrument changes to Pad 2 (Warm). Pad 2 is notated in a grand staff from mms. 40-54, then both staves have instrument changes to Piano. Piano is notated in a grand staff from mms. 55-81 then both staves have instrument changes to Pad 2. Pad 2 is notated until the end of the score.

Try to duplicate this scenario in the newer template and see what happens. (Sibelius may have changed the way it handles this sort of thing in 7 and the export back to 6 may not be correcting it for use in Sib 6.)

Do you have the Sib 6 Essentials library installed?

[Joe]

Here is exactly how the previous score, which works, is setup. I have a grand staff that I believe was originally a VDL piano. I changed the right-hand staff to djembe at the first bar, which gave the right-hand staff a percussion cleff and listed the instrument as Djembe (again, per standard Sibelius behavior). There is djembe notation mms 1-17, then both staves have instrument changes to Pad 2 (Warm), which is in the same family as Lead 6 (Voice). Pad 2 is notated in a grand staff from mms 18-29, then both staves have instrument changes to Piano (only called "Piano" in Template 6.0b, but now called "Piano~VDL" in Template 7.0). Piano is notated in a grand staff from mms. 30-39, then both staves have instrument changes to Pad 2 (Warm). Pad 2 is notated in a grand staff from mms. 40-54, then both staves have instrument changes to Piano. Piano is notated in a grand staff from mms. 55-81 then both staves have instrument changes to Pad 2. Pad 2 is notated until the end of the score.

Try to duplicate this scenario in the newer template and see what happens. (Sibelius may have changed the way it handles this sort of thing in 7 and the export back to 6 may not be correcting it for use in Sib 6.)

OK, I opened a fresh copy of the Sib 6 version of Template 7.0, and created a score with a single VDL Piano. Then I changed the right hand to djembe, then both staves to Pad 2, then both staves to piano, etc. Everything played back normally.

I made a copy of this test file, and in this copy instead of Pad 2 I used Lead 6. Everything played back normally again. However, one thing I did notice is that, when switching between the two files, I needed to manually click on notes in the left- and right-hand synth staves to get those synth sounds to play back when I started playback from the beginning. It's like they had to be "kickstarted". Maybe that has something to do with them being GM sounds. Once I kickstarted either file it played back as intended.

Encouraged by this, I did another test, this time replicating the problem I'm having with my new file. I took a new copy of the Sib 6 version of Template 7.0, deleted the Default instrument, and added VDL Piano. Then I changed the first bar of the right hand to Lead 6 and inputted notes on both staves. Both of these staves play back properly as Lead 6. Then I created instrument changes in both staves to VDL Piano. The right hand plays back as piano, while the left hand remains with the Lead 6 sound. This is exactly the same problem I'm having in my marching band score.

One thing that I noticed is different between the two test files that work, and the test file that doesn't along with my score - the way these instruments are listed in the Instruments dialogue box (keyboard shortcut "i"). It's hard to read because the names run off of the screen, but in my two working test files the right hand is listed as "Keyboard ~Djembe~14in (a), Pad 2" or "Keyboard ~Djembe~14in (a), Lead", presumably with "Piano~VDL" listed at the end, off-screen. The left hand reads "Piano~VDL (b), Pad 2 (Warm)" or "Piano~VDL (b), Lead 6 (Voice)".

In my marching band score that doesn't work properly, I see "Keyboard ~Lead 6 (Voice) (a), P" which is Sibelius listing the right hand with Lead 6 and Piano (as expected). For the left hand instrument, though, Sibelius only lists "Piano~VDL (b)" and there is no Lead 6 listed at all (even though I am hearing Lead 6 sounds, and not piano sounds). This got me thinking, along with the fact that you asked if Lead 6 used a grand staff. So, I modified the Lead 6 instrument to use a grand staff, and now the left-hand instrument change from Lead 6 to piano works!

Do you have the Sib 6 Essentials library installed?

I do not. When I upgraded from Sib 5 to Sib 6, I got a digital download of the Sib 6 file from what is now Avid. There was no accompanying Essentials file to my knowledge, so I've been using the Essentials that came with Sib 5 (which I have on an installation DVD) ever since.

[Hugh Smith]

Thank you for your detailed explanation, Joe. It sounds like we've (mostly you) narrowed down and fixed this little "bugger".

Go to the Sibelius site and get the full 6.2 installer. Once on that page, scroll down and click the corresponding link, enter your serial number, then you'll have access to the installer (you don't need to run the Sibelius installer, just the Essentials one). Or, just keep doing what you've been doing.