Trouble with SusCym~15 (A) sustained roll

[Joe]

Hello,

I am trying to write a sustained roll using the SusCym~15 (A) instrument. My problem is that the roll is not releasing; the roll plays back "forever." I have remapped this instrument and other suspended cymbals to the first ledger line above the staff, but otherwise these mappings are unchanged from the stock Template 7.0a.

Please see the attached image. The problem lies with the writing in the top staff. At the beginning of the screenshot this instrument is Xylo Bright (MW). It then changes to K China (A) in the second measure and SusCym~15 (A) in the third measure. When I play this staff back from the first or second measure, the last cymbal roll never stops. However, if I play it back from the third measure, where the roll starts, it plays back properly. So, something in the preceding measure(s) is causing the odd behavior. The crash noteheads and the roll noteheads are all #1, per the mapping diagrams.

As you can see, I have "~C64,1" commands at the beginning of the second and third measures. I use a lot of "l.v." instructions in my pit writing, which can cause the sustain controller to trigger and cause these sorts of problems. Usually a "~C64,1" command will fix it, but not here. Also, the text "China & 17" cr. w/ xylo mallets" has its "play on pass" box for Pass #1 unchecked.

In the bottom staff in the screenshot you can see where I have written the same roll on the 20" cymbal. This also uses notehead #1, and this roll releases properly at the double bar line.

Any idea what's going on and how it can be fixed? My workaround right now would be to notate the roll with the "wrong" cymbal instrument, but I'd rather figure out a real fix. Thanks.

[Joe]

Hmmm... turns out if I play the bottom staff shown in my screenshot from farther back in the score, the cymbal roll in this staff too will not release.

[Hugh Smith]

Sibelius will sometimes do that with tied notes; don't know why. I can't off the top of my head recall a specific fix for it.

Did you move all the sounds in the mapping up to the first ledger line, or just the rolls? That doesn't have any bearing, just curious.

This probably won't make a difference either: change the release notehead to 44 or 45. See what that does.

[Joe]

Did you move all the sounds in the mapping up to the first ledger line, or just the rolls? That doesn't have any bearing, just curious.

I moved everything in the mapping to the first ledger line. I teach my pit students that this is where their cymbal notation will be.

This probably won't make a difference either: change the release notehead to 44 or 45. See what that does.

Forgot to mention that above - I tried it and the symptoms are unchanged.

[Hugh Smith]

I don't believe the release issue has anything specifically to do with the template, but send me a copy of the file and Playback Configuration and I'll take a look. (I sent you a PM in case you forgot my email address.)

Oh, does it do the same thing in a new score?

[Joe]

You've got mail.

Sustained cymbal rolls release as intended in a new score, but since the rolls as written in my score release just fine when only the roll measures are played back, this isn't that relevant of an experiment.

[Hugh Smith]

Sustained cymbal rolls release as intended in a new score, but since the rolls as written in my score release just fine when only the roll measures are played back, this isn't that relevant of an experiment.

This confirms that the issue in the problem score is due to Sibelius doing something wonky and is not template related, just like I thought it wasn't. In the meantime, we need to see if we can find what's causing the behavior and find a remedy for it.

I'll see if I can look at the file later today.

[Joe]

It also may be template-related in the sense that a template-specific dictionary entry used somewhere in the score is causing trouble. Something to keep in mind.

[Hugh Smith]

Yes, there may be something in the VDL part of the Dictionary that is triggering this behavior, but it is Sibelius that is not handling it correctly.

You have quite a few instrument changes on those three staves, I've seen several examples of weird things happening due to Sibelius becoming "confused". The likelihood for this sort of thing goes up over time as the file gets larger. Similar to the "corrupted mappings" behavior that you may or may not remember.

[Joe]

Hugh,

Any updates on this? I wound up working around it by writing the troublesome cymbal rolls on aux staves used only for playback, and turning off play-on-pass for the offending rolls on the notation staves. It would be nice to know in the future how to possibly avoid this issue, though.

[Hugh Smith]

No, but I'll let you know when there is. In the meantime, it sounds like you have a viable workaround.

[Hugh Smith]

The following solution is for anyone else tracking this thread.

One of the Sibelius default Staff Text items, "l.v." (or "L.V.", it's not case sensitive), was causing the tied cymbal rolls to keep going. This can be cancelled by using "non-l.v." (or "non-L.V."). Or, just insert a space so it reads "l. v.".

[Joe]

According to the playback dictionary "non-l.v." and "~C64,1" should do the same thing - they both lower the sustain controller all of the way.

What Hugh's help led me to realize was that "~C64,1" commands at the start of these 2-bar sustained rolls weren't fixing the issue, but "~C64,1" commands halfway through the roll (i.e. in the second bar) fix the problem, and with this text in place rolls release as intended.

So, "~C64,1" and "non-l.v." do the same thing, and all is right with the world. Just be mindful of where you put this text; I use "C64,1" all of the time and I've never run into this particular issue of needing to locate it in a particular place other than the beginning of the note I am wanting to affect.